Office Hours

Fatima Goss Graves

CEO/President, National Women’s Law CenterCEO/President, National Women’s Law Center

Fatima Goss Graves remembers her law school graduation day with exceptional clarity. It wasn’t just her immediate family who showed up, but aunts, uncles, cousins, and friends of family—all there to mark the occasion, because they understood the profound power and potential of the law as an agent to drive social change. “It was both a deep honor and also a deep responsibility tied to that degree,” says Goss Graves, who knew she wanted to be a lawyer—the first in her family—as early as high school, after growing up listening to family stories of her father and his siblings as plaintiffs in a school desegregation case in Knoxville, Tennessee, and that her grandfather who stood up against discrimination and segregation. “My family was willing to take that risk and fight, not just for our family, but for every family—and I understand the significance of standing up for people. Lawyers do this again and again, taking on systems that are unfair and pushing the rules that we govern ourselves to be better and more just—I wanted to be a part of that.” 

Now, after nearly two decades at the National Women’s Law Center—seven of which as the non-profit organization’s President and CEO—Goss Graves is more committed than ever to fighting against gender injustices and safeguarding the future of women’s rights. Here, she reflects on her illustrious career, shares her thoughts on the upcoming election, and imparts both sage advice and hope.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF LAW, IT’S VERY MALE-DOMINATED, IT’S VERY WHITE. DID YOU EXPERIENCE DISCRIMINATION WHILE YOU WERE STUDYING LAW?

“When I graduated from law school over 20 years ago, the profession was even less diverse, and I had so many moments, as a Black woman, where I would be the only person in the room who looked like me or where I experienced discrimination from a client or a colleague. The Civil Rights Act, which says you can't discriminate at work, was passed in 1964. It's not that people don't know there are rules, but they don't feel—and hadn't felt—like they had to follow them. 

“What you have to find is community; look for anyone who can support you, who will guide you. For me, I’m able to consistently show up against whatever the odds are, because I have such a deep grounding in my home life, outside of the profession. And that makes a difference. 

“My first job was as a law clerk at the Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, and there was only one Black woman on the court at the time. I would go a very long time without seeing another Black woman in my job. It’s amazing to go from that experience to two years ago when Justice Ketanji Jackson was confirmed on the Supreme Court. Twenty years ago, I couldn’t have imagined that in my lifetime I would see a Black woman sit on the Supreme Court in a profession that’s just so not diverse. I think about all the people who are entering the profession today knowing they can be whatever they want to be in the field.”

WHY GENDER JUSTICE? WAS THERE A PIVOTAL MOMENT FOR YOU WHEN YOU KNEW THIS WAS YOUR CALLING? 

“I have to confess: In my earliest days, I didn't use that language, ‘gender justice’ or ‘feminist.’ I think that's true for a lot of people—they don't necessarily have the language to match the things they feel passionate about. 

“I had a number of experiences early on in my career where I had the chance to mentor girls in school—these creative, interesting, funny young people who kept me on my toes. I saw that when you provide the space and time and energy, it allows them the ability to rise and thrive. But these same girls, and especially those who were Black, would talk about the types of experiences that they were having in school; how they were treated unfairly by teachers; how they got into trouble for insignificant things; how they were harassed by boys. It brought me back to my own childhood where I never remember anyone saying anything about this day-to-day harassment that I experienced. It was taken as a given.

“When I was in law school, I found out about Title IV, which says schools have a longstanding obligation to make sure students don't experience discrimination or harassment. So, when I joined the National Women's Law Center, my task was to ensure that people knew about the power of Title IV and that schools took it seriously. I represented clients who were being treated unfairly in school and understood that we could do something about it. Over time, at the National Women's Law Center, I’ve been able to build real clarity around a range of laws and policies that could do right by women, girls, and gender-expansive people in this country. And I've been able to think about the way in which law, policy, our culture, and our institutions all have to change to ensure that we are the country that we all deserve.”

ARE THERE ANY SPECIFIC LAWS OR POLICIES THAT YOU'VE HAD A HAND IN SHAPING? 

“Two things come to mind. One: In the early days of the pandemic, we saw giant rates of unemployment for women. Millions of women left the workforce and weren't looking for employment because they were put in this untenable situation of having to work and care at the same time. The math around child care doesn't really work: The workers aren't paid enough to be stable in the workforce, families can't afford to pay more, and we, as a nation, haven’t invested enough to ensure it’s an efficient infrastructure for families, communities, and businesses. We were able to jump in and work to secure a historic increase in funding for child care to help stabilize a collapsing child care sector. And I am so proud of the work that we were able to do in that moment, all while bringing visibility to how critical it is to invest in the care economy, to invest in child care, paid leave, and home care. And we're continuing to fight—our work is not over. 

“Second: A part of the Affordable Care Act [in 2010] is that you can't discriminate based on sex in health care programs and activities—it’s a law called Section 1557, which is modeled after Title IV. This expansion in health care has been critical during a time when we're seeing extreme attacks against sexual orientation and gender identity, and efforts to restrict reproductive health care. I was one of the lead folks who worked on Section 1557, and I’m so grateful it exists today because we now have baseline protection.” 

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH SETBACKS? HOW DO YOU FIND THE MOTIVATION TO KEEP FIGHTING THE FIGHT?

“It was devastating when they overturned Roe v. Wade, because I knew how many people would be put in harm's way. I thought immediately of people who would be criminally punished for accessing health care or helping someone else. And I also knew and understood that people would die, which is a heavy thing to say. It is heartbreaking; it is devastating. But it is not in my genes—and I actually think not in the makeup of civil rights lawyers—to see a hard thing and say, ‘Well, now I give up.’ Our task is never an easy one.

“I'm reminded of those who were fighting before me—and fighting at a time when we had very few protections in the law on gender. I think about the efforts of people like Pauli Murray, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Shirley Chisholm, who were dreaming up systems and approaches that didn't even exist at the time. I think about the co-founders of the National Women's Law Center, which was founded in 1972, who had to argue cases or galvanize a public who hadn’t imagined that pregnant workers should be protected or harassment should be prohibited at work. What ensures my motivation is knowing that this work did not begin with me. And I think about all the other people who are counting on us.”

"We shouldn’t spend all our time in despair and fear and grief. It’s a powerful organizing strategy to allow yourself to have hope and joy, even in times of uncertainty.”

HOW MUCH HAS CHANGED SINCE WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED AND WHAT PROGRESS DO YOU WANT TO KEEP SEEING? 

“I've seen a lot of great progress. Just in the last four years of the Biden administration, he has appointed more Black women to the federal bench than every other President combined. In the last five years, we've seen more than 25 states pass laws to further gender justice, to have additional protections around workplace harassment: to have greater protections around equal pay. I remember when I first started working on issues of equal pay, we would have this weird back-and-forth about whether a wage gap existed. We have the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, but the fight now isn’t about pay equity, it’s about the best way to narrow that gap. For many young people—Gen Z and millennials—they will not apply for jobs unless there is pay transparency. That is a huge shift culturally, even as we are working to have our laws catch up. 

“We’ve seen big moments, like the #MeToo movement and the passing of the Affordable Care Act—which meant maternity care coverage, people getting access to birth control without co-pays, and gender no longer being a reason to charge more for health insurance. Those are totally accepted and common practices that are now enshrined in the law, so that we have a more equitable health care system.” 

WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO SAFEGUARD THE FUTURE OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS? HOW ARE YOU BRACING FOR ELECTION RESULTS?

“At the National Women's Law Center, our very serious and critical task is to safeguard and secure the rights of women, girls, and gender-expansive people in this country, and to fight for gender justice and to defend our freedoms no matter the outcome. I understand we're in the midst of the backlash—and it’s one where racist and sexist attacks are intensifying. If extremists are in charge, we will double down and fight for our freedoms and for our dignity, for equity, and for the values that are foundational for a healthy democracy. It’s our responsibility to ensure that many people are protected through it.

“We're in this contentious battle for the future of our country, but I am heartened again and again to see so many people from all walks of life aligning and coming together and understanding what's at stake. This is the first time I’ve seen an election where gender justice issues – reproductive freedom, abortion access, care–are not only at the center of what everybody's talking about, but these issues are being tied to our very ability to have financial security, to set up our next generation for success.

“I know people are nervous, and I think many people are afraid to hope. They think, “If we have hope, then maybe we’ll be disappointed.”  I think we should lean into hope and joy. We shouldn’t spend all our time in despair and fear and grief. It’s a powerful organizing strategy to allow yourself to have hope and joy, even in times of uncertainty.”

WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO FOLLOW IN YOUR FOOTSTEPS?

“Find what brings you great joy, and do that. And also: Don't go by yourself. I grew up with two sisters, and my mom had a rule that governed our lives, which was: Take your sisters with you. Basically, don’t leave the house without taking your sister. I see it as an ethos, as a way to live your life—to ensure that folks aren't left behind. So, take your sisters.” 

IS THERE ANY ADVICE YOU WISH YOU COULD HAVE GIVEN TO YOUR YOUNGER SELF—OR THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAD? 

“Everyone, including me, has an imposter complex—a feeling that you don't belong, especially if you're the first or the only one in this space. So the advice I wish I had given myself or that someone had given me: You belong. You belong in this space.”

Illustrations by Bijou Karman